At 84 Lumber, talent acquisition is more than filling jobs. It’s about creating long-term careers. With 96% of store leaders starting as management trainees, the company has built one of the strongest internal mobility pipelines in the industry.
In this episode, you’ll hear how 84 Lumber attracts candidates with no industry experience, develops them through structured training, and promotes from within to sustain growth. Paul Yater, CIO and Head of HR, explains the strategies behind this model:
Connect with 84 Lumber: https://www.84lumber.com
Connect with Paul: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-yater-b229633
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[00:00:00] Paul Yater: We have on-the-job training, learning management solutions, modules, we've built a process and tools to be able to teach somebody how to do this and be very successful. We've just gotta find those right people that are built the right way and wired the right way, that this is right for them.
[00:00:13] Dave Travers: So what does it really take for your business to attract world-class talent today?
I'm Dave Travers, President of ZipRecruiter and on Talent All-Stars, we shine a light on the people and the day-to-day processes behind recruitment and retention at some of the world's most influential businesses. My guest today is Paul Yater, Chief Information Officer and Head of Human Resources at 84 Lumber, the nation's largest privately held building materials supplier with more than 300 stores across the us.
Paul's career path is one of the most unique we've seen, from consulting at IBM to IT leadership at Heimz, Dick's Sporting Goods, and GNC, and then stepping into the dual CIO and HR role at 84 Lumber in 2017. Since then, Paul's modernized systems built partnerships with universities and championed the company's ladder of opportunity, helping thousands of employees grow from manager trainees into leaders.
So let's learn more about how he's done it and what comes next. Paul Yater, welcome to Talent All-Stars.
[00:01:11] Paul Yater: Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Appreciate the opportunity.
[00:01:15] Dave Travers: So excited to have you. I wanna start at the beginning, or maybe not all the way at the beginning, but how did you find your way to running HR and being a people, uh, team leader?
Because your path is different than almost anybody I've ever talked to before. How did it go for you, and when did you realize this could be, could be your path?
[00:01:35] Paul Yater: Sure. So, yeah, I mean, I'll say it, guy by trade and history and career path. I'll put a little caveat that and say, you know, it was a liberal arts degree and a liberal arts undergrad, and I'm a guy that knows how to think and solve problems, but, you know, a history of progressive roles throughout it.
And becoming a Chief Information Officer and leading an IT department, and running it, joined 84 Lumber about nine years ago now to come in and put together a path, right? It's a, okay, we wanna leverage technology, digital transformation, all the things that people are talking about. And built a team, built a plan, put that together.
And about a year and a half into that journey, we had turned over the HR role a couple of times, and I report directly to the chief operating officer, and I could see the stress that that was putting on him. And I'm like, look, we need, we need to focus on the mothership. And sort of raised my hand and said, Hey, look, if you'll take a shot on me, I'll take a shot at this.
Like, I think I've. I think I could do this. And he said, Hey, look, you know, I really appreciate the relationships you've built with our field and store folks. I think the plan that you have is good. You know, our people are our most important assets. We could become more contemporary and more modern on that side.
Yeah. Let, let's take a shot at it. I think you can do this, and you know, eight years later or whatever it is, I'm still running both. And my saying is, no, running HR on a pandemic was not on my bucket list, but you know, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger kind of stuff. Right. So I mean, I think it was just career journey.
I think it's emblematic or symbolic of what we do here at 84 Lumber. You know, we take good people, and if they can do well, we give them opportunity. And that's, I think, I'm the epitome of that. And, somebody running both of these key functions is, gives you that kind of capability and tells you sort of how we're wired and what we're about.
[00:03:02] Dave Travers: I want to come back to that about 84 Lumber, 'cause that is really interesting about the company. But I wanna stick on you for a second. Do you remember the moment? Was it before you pitched yourself as on taking the job, running HR or was it subsequent when you were in the role? Like, when did you think like, Hey, I got this, I can do that.
I know this isn't my like, you know, path that I've been up, but when did that moment of self-confidence come that like, I can do this job.
[00:03:27] Paul Yater: I would say, you know, our focus early on and, and continuously has been in recruiting and, and talent acquisition to that side of it for sure. And I think once we got the structure right, and once we got the people right, and once we started to see the metrics turn in the right direction, I'm like, okay, now we've got the processes, the people in the right got the right people in the right seats in the bus, and we're really driving this thing.
That's where it sort of felt like. You know, Hey, look, it feels like we've got the right people. I'll say the same thing on the training and development side and the HR operations side. As you start to see, okay, we've got this, things are going well here, we've stabilized these areas, then it starts to feel like, okay, now we can go do transformational things.
And you know, it's not one from one fire to the next. It's really okay, let's figure out how to drive this and put together strategy and a plan, and continuously improve this thing.
[00:04:08] Dave Travers: Yeah, if I'm, if I'm interpreting correctly, it sounds like. There wasn't a huge moment of self-doubt, you know, that you could do this 'cause you'd been in the company, you'd seen it, you'd been involved, you'd obviously been a customer of HR for a while, so you, you had some belief in yourself to do it, if that's right.
How does that apply to now, how you mentor and develop other people? Because I think a lot of people have. An intense desire to work their way up and take on big opportunities like you have. But wonder like, am I ready? How do I know I'll be able to do it? Will I be successful? How do you coach that?
[00:04:45] Paul Yater: I think you've just gotta take the skills that have helped you progress in your career and continue to use those and leverages, right?
If you ask me, well, what were some of the things that you did when you got in there? It’s listen, it's ask questions. It's why do we do it that way? Where are we talk to? Customers internally and externally, like, okay, what's working, what's not? I mean, it's just simple things about trying to figure out where are the opportunities? Where are the risks?
What do we gotta do? Let's put together a plan, plan the work, work the plan kind of stuff. But you've gotta understand your people. You've gotta understand what's working. You've gotta understand the needs, and then you've gotta prioritize it. And then I'd say get your team what you need to be successful.
Whether that's get issues out of the way, fix structures, additional budget or whatever the things are that come up that says, we need to fix this, or this is the thing that's in the way, or this is something that I don't understand why we can't fix this. We'll get into some of the strategies and some of the things, but we spend a lot of time on messaging and telling the story, and where are we telling the story, and you know, realistic job previews and just really digging into the recruiting stuff and trying to figure out how do we get this thing turned around?
We've got great opportunity here. How do we tell the story effectively? How do we find the right candidates? How do we match opportunity with candidate, and figure those things out? And it just is a lot of rolling up your sleeves and getting in the battle day to day with your folks. Right.
[00:05:54] Dave Travers: I love the idea of focusing on telling the story. So I think this is something that feels foreign to a lot of people who love that connecting candidate with opportunity. Love the people aspect of the job, but there's also always a sales aspect of how do we tell our story and make people wanna come, and sometimes telling the story.
Depending on the company, depending on its history, depending on what the role is, can be harder or not. Like, for those for whom being a storyteller and painting a picture for people of why they should be part of something, how do you begin that process? How do you convince someone to start becoming a storyteller?
[00:06:32] Paul Yater: We have a great story to tell, quite frankly. So it's really finding the story, finding out where you wanna tell the story, and telling it, right? So 96% of our store folks started life as a manager trainee. That is our entry-level position. You know, the Chief Operating Officer, Frank Ciro, that I mentioned a few minutes ago, started life as a manager trainee.
I mean, Maggie Hardy spent time in a store as a manager trainee. That is who we are. We are, we talk about up the ladder and opportunities. I mean, we live it and breathe it and promote from within like no other place I've ever seen. So it's really okay. We have a story to tell. Let's go effectively tell that, and let's give the why, right?
I'm a big Simon Sinek guy. Let's give people their why. Why? Why do we do this? Why is it, how can you take advantage of this? What does it really look like? What does a realistic job preview look like? We had testimonials from folks who started life as an mt, and where are they now, and what paths have they taken and how did they get there?
We talked about, we talk about the training programs that we've had, and we will tell you, you do not need to know anything about this industry. You don't need to know how to swing a hammer or build a house or do anything. You just have to have the right DNA. The right drive, the right work ethic, the right culture fit to be able to come in here.
And we have on-the-job training, learning management solutions, modules. We've built a process and tools to be able to teach somebody how to do this and be very successful. We've just gotta find those right people that are built the right way and wired the right way that this is right for them. So, it's partnering with marketing to figure out telling the story.
It's where's the digital, what's happening? It's hiring events. It's being out there. It's things like this where we're, we're telling the story and talking about it. It's, it's scream it from the rooftops, quite frankly, and tell the story everywhere that anybody will listen.
[00:08:04] Dave Travers: Well, one of the big whys and one of the big parts of the story clearly is about internal mobility.
Like you, clearly, you've talked about management trainees already. You've talked about your own journey going from CIO to head of HR, and like that is something clearly that is really important to you and to 84. Give me the why of why that is so important to your company. Like for somebody who says, oh yeah, we've got an internal mobility program.
We've got a bunch of people who've moved up through the organization. You guys really are living that. Why is that so important for you?
[00:08:37] Paul Yater: It is because it's what has made us successful. It's part of the culture, it's part of who we are. Everybody at 84 has a story about, there was somebody who was influential in their career that took a shot on them, that helped them, that coached them, that mentored them, that taught them.
So it's really ingrained in who we are. So not only is it, you know, we've got an onsite training facility that's booked 50 outta 52 weeks a year that we send several thousand people through everywhere. You know, we've got modules in our learning management solution that are job-focused. We've got the tools and the pieces around us, but we've also got a culture of, look, this is your role.
You need to teach. We're building this for the next generation. Find that diamond in the rough. Find that person who has committed, and who has done this, and who is 84 material, for lack of a better word, term. And you gotta help them get there, right? You gotta find the right person. They've gotta be committed, they've gotta be coachable.
They've gotta have all the things, and they've gotta be willing to bet on themselves. But it is, you know, a manager's responsibility, a co-manager's responsibility to help train and teach and do that. And it's just, it's who we are. This place is wired with people that want to help other folks and wanna see people be successful from the top down. And it's part of who we are and what we do.
[00:09:44] Dave Travers: I think so many people listening and watching resonate with the desire to be in a place where people are looking out for them, looking for opportunities, helping and coaching them along the way. And so having the power of all these stories to tell about how everyone has these stories at 84, about who looked out for them and who managed and coached them, is incredible.
If you were starting from scratch, if you're an HR leader. Today, and you don't inherit the culture of 84, but you think, I would love to bring more of that internal storytelling about who's been helped, who's worked their way up the system, make internal mobility a bigger part of the strategy, and you're starting that journey.
Where would you start if you didn't have the history that you have? At 84?
[00:10:27] Paul Yater: Yeah, I would say a couple of areas. I would say obviously care about your people, right? Care, and then we've got it. If you don't like the people that you work with, and you don't care about the people you work with, and they don't care about you, you're probably in the wrong place.
I mean, we say family, I mean, we mean family, and everybody says family, right? I mean, this is literally a family-owned business. I mean, the Hardy family started the baby; Mr. Hardy started it. Maggie owns it. It's literally a, I would say it feels like a small family business. I mean, we're. $6 billion, $7 billion, depending on the year, right?
Not so small anymore. Not, not so small, but it, it still feels small and it still feels like people care and want to help. I think it is. You gotta want to get outta bed every day, and help those people that you care about. What is it? Ask questions. Listen, like some organizations are a product organization, some are marketing organizations.
This is clearly a store's organization. We exist because of the 320 stores and the 7,000 people that are out there helping our customers every day. And when somebody calls our team headquarters and says, I need help, or, can you find me this? Or can you do that? Or, I need somebody in this role's been vacant for this long.
We are all about how do we get that fixed? How do we help them? How do we solve those problems? And how do we make sure they've got everything that they need to be successful to help our customers, right? So that's how we've been able to do it a little bit more tactically is, you know, think about structure, think about organization.
Do you have the right people aligned in the right roles? Are you structured to aligned with business needs and business functions? We used to have one person that was running all of talent acquisition. Now we've got three directors. We're divisionally aligned. So now sort of each division has their own person, right, that they can go to.
So thinking about simple structural and work design is probably a key piece of it, too. I would get back to telling the story. I think if you asked me, at least from a recruiting and a talent acquisition perspective is how do you tell your story? Where do you tell your story? Who are the partners that you're working with to tell that story and measure it?
Right. I'm an IT guy. I'm a data guy. I, you didn't ask me this, but I'll say one of the first things I did was try to dig into the data. I'm like, okay, there's gotta be data in here that tells me what's going. We got turnover problems where the heck is that turnover problem? Let me look at divisions and managers and stores, and where is it, and let me just find it right here.
Right? Wasn't quite that easy. There were some indicators and some things that we needed to focus on. We saw things like if we could get somebody, when a manager trainee started, if we could get them to that lumber camp, which usually happens at six or eight weeks. That was sort of a magic taking off point before that there would be turnover, and you know, voluntary turnover.
So we focus a lot on onboarding. We focus a lot on some checklists to say, what should you learn week one? What should you learn day one? What should you learn month one, right? Or do you have the questions? Do you know who, where do you go for things? We created a training center.
We created an onboarding board in the back of the store, where it had QR codes on it and said, oh, here's where I find out about benefits. Here's where I call for training, whatever, things like that. We created some product knowledge training. Two of the hardest things that our employees say the hardest things to learn are, one is the product knowledge.
We sell a lot of products. Well, the good news is you don't have to know anything before you get here. The bad news is it's a pretty, pretty steep up ramp. So we've got. Build the tools and processes to teach you the product knowledge so that you can help customers. So solve their problems and figure out their projects.
Um, and then our systems, right? Point of sale solutions, and how do I ring somebody up? How do I do an estimate, you know, how do I do inventory? Those kind of things. And just teaching those kinds of things. So I think it's just stay focused on some of those things. Figure out your plan. And plan the work and work to plan.
[00:13:32] Dave Travers: I love it. And so what's so cool about how you explain that? Is that you in thinking about how do I develop internal mobility at my company? You approach that not from a, well, first we're gonna come up with a 27-point plan about how we're gonna support systems that care, and then we'll implement the plan, and then all of a sudden we'll care you.
You started just the opposite you, the way you talked about that was. First, you care about your people. Like that's principle number one. And right there, you're already doing something 'cause you're showing as a leader how we approach things, and people follow leaders and follow their examples. And then you get into all the tactics and strategies that support that.
But it starts from caring. It doesn't start from the systems and processes and I love that. That is very powerful.
[00:14:14] Paul Yater: That's right. I guess I'll take that. That probably comes from some of my IT side, 'cause the worst thing you can do to an IT guy is build something that people don't want to use. So, you know, you've gotta make sure it's real.
You've gotta make sure it's helping. You've gotta make sure you've thought about the training and the change management pieces of it. So that all fits on the HR side, too, right? HR is about human resources and people. It starts with the people.
[00:14:32] Dave Travers: And that's such a great transition, 'cause so many people, leaders are.
Thought they were working their way up, a people organization, and now they realize that a huge percentage of their job is figuring out what pieces of technology do I add? Where do I still have people do things? Of the 10,000 technology vendors pitching me, which you know, few can I take on this year.
That is such a big part of the job of being a people leader. You're the expert you came up that for, that's new for most heads of HR. For you, that's the part of the job you came from as a people leader, an HR leader who's taking that sort of responsibility on for the first time, what's the right way to approach all the AI and IT and transitions, and you know, switching out systems?
Like, what's the framework you use to do that?
[00:15:20] Paul Yater: I think it's staying focused on business results and business needs. Right? I bright, shiny object. I mean, there's no magic in a lot of these things. I mean, it is. No, sometimes it's the devil, you know, versus the devil you don't, right? I mean, no. Nobody loves their point of sale solution all the time.
Nobody loves their ERP, right? There are challenges with any one of these things. I think it's figuring out, okay, what do I have? What are the challenges? Are the real problems? Have I sat down and articulated to my technology partners where the challenges are and what the needs are, and what we're trying to do?
I think you gotta treat. Like trusted partners and trusted advisors, and they've gotta be part of your solution, right? So I think that's, at my end of the day, that's how I've always taught my, or treated my technology vendors. Like they were a partner and we were trying to solve things together, right?
They need referenceable customers. They want people to come tell their story, too. We're looking for the same thing. If I can figure out how to use this technology and get the business results and solve the business problems, that's a win-win for both of us. And that's the kind of relationship and the kind of partnership that you want.
So I think it's really just trying to work to those common grounds and you know, making sure, sometimes you gotta have frank conversations and say, look, this just isn't working and I need. You gotta find me the right person that can solve this problem because we've struggled with this for this amount of time, and here's what we're trying to do.
Like, I can't be the first person that's done this, or if I am, tell me why. And then I'll change my process or figure out why. If it's me, tell me it's me. I got a mirror, I'll look in it, and you know, I can figure out if it's me, but there's probably something in the middle where we need to do something different.
We need you to help us figure something out. How do we get there? How do we do that together? And I think it's just putting together a plan and having a, like, it is being, you know, you've gotta take care of the day-to-day. It's gotta operate, it's gotta run. That's sort of table stakes. And then it's the, okay, what are the transformational, what are the prior prioritization is a hard thing to do, right?
Figuring out what's the next most important thing is challenging, but I think if you listen and if you figure out where the problems are and is it aligned with the business, right? Hiring is a key part of what we're doing at 84 Lumber. It's our growth strategy. It's what creates the opportunities that we've talked about.
So we've gotta make sure that we've got the right processes and the right teams in place and the right technology in place to be able to hire people, right? We have a lot of turnover, whether that's positive turnover from promoting people. The 96% of 'em get promoted, most of them get only spend a year in that manager training role, maybe even six months.
So we've gotta have the right processes to be able to build that next generation and handle that turnover. How do I do that with technology? How do I do that with people? And how do we bring it together to be able to enable the business, quite frankly,
[00:17:39] Dave Travers: So many pieces of wisdom there.
Two things I really want to click on that you got to right away. One is talking about the business objective. So I think for people who are leading technology decisions for the first time. It's easy to think like, oh, you know, I want to come in and I want a next-generation HRIS, that's my objective. Or whatever, you know, fill in the acronym, but not putting it in the language of like, how's the business gonna be better off?
And if you can't say that, maybe the project isn't ready to go yet. So I love that and I love painting the vision with the vendor as a partner, like starting out saying, I look forward to the day where I am your reference customer, and it's not a favor to you, it's 'cause I'm thrilled to let people know, this is so good.
Put me on the panel. Let me tell your story. I want one hand to shake. And we'll all, you know, we're all ride down the parade. The parade route together. Right.
That's exactly right. But that's, it's so clear and exciting to be part of a partnership like that, but it also creates a very high standard now. That the partner is implicitly, you know, signing up to excitedly to say, yeah, I wanna be that kind of a reference customer too, and that really raises the bar for them. So I love that. I love that technique.
Okay, so, so now as you're in the middle of making these decisions today, and everybody's got questions about, am I using AI enough? Bosses are asking, you know, are we being efficient enough? Should we be utilizing technology more? How do you approach this new world about when do we say at such a, you know, clearly at 84 Lumber people the most important asset. We've heard that already. The world of technology is changing.
It's allowing us to serve customers better. Where do you, as someone who's thought about people and thought about technology a lot, where do you use people and where do you use technology, and how do you bring 'em together? What's your philosophy?
[00:19:31] Paul Yater: Yeah, so I think it is about, again, solving business problems and listening.
So I don't wanna repeat that, but I think. There's gotta be transparency and communication around this new tech. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to the AI piece of it because I think it's, you've gotta take the fear outta the equation first of all, right? Like, this is not about taking away jobs. I believe this is gonna make everybody more productive.
Everybody's gonna have an assistant that they are gonna have that's gonna help them be better, more productive focus on the stuff that matters. However, you wanna slice that. I'm gonna steal this. I was at a conference a couple weeks ago, and I heard somebody say this, and it's a perfect analogy, so it's not original, but I love it.
So I'm gonna borrow it. It's a copycat league, right? So they said AI is going to be a microwave, not an iPhone. What does that mean? Right? You put a microwave in your kitchen, it didn't replace your oven, it didn't replace your toaster. It just was another tool in your kitchen that helped you be. Faster, better, more productive.
Right? It's not your iPhone that is now your phone, your calculator, your computer in your pocket, your camera, and everything else. It's just another tool that you have in your toolbox, right? So, I like that. I think communicating and transparency about what the expectations are. Look, we want you to use this.
We wanna encourage how to use it. Do we have all the answers about which business problems? Is it gonna solve, and which use cases are we going? No. Are we piloting, are we tinkering? Are we trying to understand? Are we trying to figure out where we can use it and where we can leverage it? Yeah. That's how we're approaching it.
And I think every IT and HR person probably knows who their project people are and who they're good, who should I tap to put on that technology project, and who should be on that steering committee, and who would give real positive feedback and who's not afraid of it, they'll use it. So it's really trying to put together those strategies and leverage those partnerships and those relationships who have been people who have.
That muscle memory that they can pull on and says, yep, the last time we did one of these technology things, we did this, and here's how we solved it. Okay, gimme the next one. We'll try it, we'll tinker it. We'll kick it around and tell you, yep, here's the good stuff and here's the bad stuff. Fix these, tweak those, and let's go.
Right? That's how we've been approaching it. I think the other thing that I've learned is the days of the long 18-month, big bang, ERP, whatever, whatever, or a long-gone so far in the rear view mirror, we can't even see 'em, right? It is learn quickly, adapt, pilot, try it, figure it out. Show it to people. We're visual learners.
We're visual feedback. Don't just go off and try to design it in a vacuum. Make sure you're talking about it, seeing it, understanding, and talking about the problems and the use. Make sure you understand the use case for AI and what is it gonna, you know, we're using it in some places, right? We're using it in recruiting, right?
We're using it in training and development. Those are some of the areas we're using it in cybersecurity, right? So there are some areas where we're using it and seeing value. We're piloting with contracts and things like that. So, there's areas that we're seeing it, but. Are we using it to go? Do you know commodity lumber pricing for tomorrow's purchase? No, not quite yet.
In anything that's mission critical, but you know, recruiting is pretty mission critical for us, and we're leveraging it to help us be better, be faster, you know, take that key recruiting team that are finding those key roles and be more productive. Right.
[00:22:20] Dave Travers: Yeah. I, your is your themes of putting the business objective and telling the story.
Those are so critical to what you said first, which is the getting people to not view it as a threat, view it as the microwave that's gonna help, not the iPhone that's gonna replace. And so telling that story and having a clear sense of what that business objective is, that the technology helps, is so critical in getting to your point, the people to actually use the technology that you procured because you've laid out the value proposition to them so clearly I love that.
Okay, so we always finish these episodes with what I like to call the lightning round. So assume you've only got the 60 seconds that it takes to make a cup of coffee in the kitchen, or go on an elevator ride, 'cause the Maggie, I think you said her name is who runs the company today, comes up next to you in the elevator and says.
Hey Paul, you know how I've been thinking about it. How should we measure our talent team, the people who are promoting from within and hiring new people at the organization? How should we be measuring the effectiveness of that team over the next year or two?
[00:23:28] Paul Yater: A couple things there. I think it's time to hire clearly.
You know, we've got these open roles. If that manager trainee is vacant. That whole entire store is suffering because they've got a vacancy. So, time to hire is key. Hires in general are key. I think promotions are important. I mean, because it's such an important role for us. Looking at that manager trainee role and really analyzing these statistics around that is key as well.
So I think those are probably the key things I would say is, are we hiring fast enough? Are we hiring the right people? Are they getting promotion? Do we have the next generation of store managers in the company?
[00:23:58] Dave Travers: I've never heard the business leader yet say, you know, I like my hiring process. I just wish it were slower.
You know, like that is yet to be heard by anyone. Faster is always better. And the promotion thing, I love, I don't hear that very often, but it's such a clear, true north metric that this was a good hire originally. It takes time to see that data evolve. That's the challenge with it, but it's unambiguous that if the person you hired a year ago is now being promoted, that is a really powerful, like we did something right on this one.
Paul Yater, so great to have you on Talent All-Stars. It is very clear why you're a Talent All-Star. Thanks so much for being with us today.
[00:24:37] Paul Yater: Thanks for your time. Appreciate the ability to tell the story and had a good time doing it with you. Thanks, Dave.
[00:24:45] Dave Travers: Paul Yater, Chief Information Officer and Head of Human Resources at 84 Lumber. We'll include a link to his LinkedIn profile in the episode description, and just a reminder, you can also catch the video versions of these conversations on YouTube on the official ZipRecruiter channel. If you've got feedback for us or ideas for future episodes, send us an email at talentallstars@ziprecruiter.com.
I'm Dave Travers. Thanks for listening to Talent All-Stars. See you right back here next week.