Southwest Airlines has a team of 200 people whose sole responsibility is to source the company’s “secret sauce”: its people.
That team’s leader? Greg Muccio, who started his career as a struggling salesman—before pivoting to agency recruiting and eventually joining Southwest in 2001.
It took him seven tries to land his first leadership role, but that journey shaped who he is today: humble, focused on team success, and deeply committed to delivering an exceptional candidate experience.
In this conversation with ZipRecruiter president Dave Travers, Greg shares how Southwest sustains its legendary people-first culture at scale—while embracing innovation and preparing for what’s next.
You’ll hear Greg explain:
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[00:00:00] Greg Muccio: People are what our secret sauce is, right? It's the planes and all this kind of stuff, but it's always the people that it's our differentiating factor, but 200 of us have that sole responsibility. You're sourcing what is considered our most competitive advantage over everybody else.
[00:00:18] Dave Travers: So, what does it really take for your business to attract world-class talent today? I'm Dave Traverse, president of ZipRecruiter and on Talent All-Stars, we shine a light on the people and the day-to-day processes behind. And recruitment and retention at some of the world's most influential businesses.
Today's guest has spent more than two decades helping one of America's most beloved companies hire smarter and stay true to its people-first culture. Greg Muccio is the managing director of Talent Acquisition at Southwest Airlines, where he worked his way up from recruiter to department head. He led major tech-driven transformations and even built a career mobility team inside the airline, almost like an internal college career center. Greg's worked hard to get here. As you'll hear, his career has been defined by tenacity, empathy, and a passion for people. Greg Muccio from Southwest Airlines, welcome to Talent All Stars.
[00:01:12] Greg Muccio: Dave, thanks so much. Glad to be here.
[00:01:14] Dave Travers: So excited to have you here, so much to talk about. But first, you started out as a recruiter, and you've worked your way all the way up to the big time now at Southwest Airlines. Take me back to the beginning. When did it feel to you like recruiting might not just be a job, but when it might be a calling or a career or you know, something much bigger than that?
[00:01:38] Greg Muccio: Yeah, well, I mean even before that I was at a staffing agency, and that's when the epiphany moment I would say happen.'Cause I had been in several sales jobs up until that point in time, and I even started at the agency in sales and just finally had one of those moments, right, where it's like, hey. I really hate sales, and I'm also not very good at it, and that just doesn't seem like a really good long-term success plan.
And it just so happened that my leaders there were like, Hey, have you ever thought about recruiting because you're really good at this and this, and. So, yeah, jumped into it, really liked it. And then had the opportunity, of course, to come over almost 24 years ago here at Southwest. And so, yeah, I love it. I love just the hunt and just the, you know, all the pieces that kind of go with it. It's, others are like, Hey, don't you wanna learn other parts of hr? I'm like, not really. I'm like, it's just the action is in the TA side. So I really just love it.
[00:02:36] Dave Travers: So break something down for me, though. You said you don't love sales, but you love the hunt. Tell me about what's the hunt?
[00:02:43] Greg Muccio: Yeah, and even the difference to me from being at an agency to being at a company like Southwest, right, where. I think, I guess just from the sales perspective is like, well, do you really need it? Like, and that's just not, that's a Tommy boy, you know, sales move where it's like, do you really need this product? Kind of a thing that I think I always went through. And I think even at the agency, I mean, there were times where it's like, man, I don't really want to place somebody at this client 'cause of what I've learned, or whatever it is.
It just doesn't feel great. And then to come to a place like Southwest, where it was like, okay, I'm not. What I'm selling is Southwest, which is a pretty easy sell in the big picture of things. And then just being able to know I've gone through it, but just the number of people that would just build upon kind of a changed life or the opportunity that they had.
And so that just made it. That just kind of made it easier 'cause I was, whether you'd say yes or no, could totally happen, but I knew that I wasn't making something up and I wasn't misleading somebody to a sale I believed in and knew it to be true. That's awesome.
[00:03:54] Dave Travers: That's awesome. And there's nothing that makes you better. In the hunt or in the sail, then feeling it yourself as you're talking about it and explaining it to someone else.
[00:04:02] Greg Muccio: 100%. I mean, I always tell my team, if you will, like, just make it personal, right? I mean, that's just what I began to kind of do is just share some of my own personal things, and going, I, I can't tell you what you're gonna like best about it. Here's just some things. And I'm like, they're facts. 'cause I'm talking about myself and I lived through 'em and you can't, nobody can deny or go, oh, that's. Coming off of a script or anything along those lines.
[00:04:28] Dave Travers: And so then, when you did make the transition from being a recruiter to starting to lead teams, what was that like? Was it all you ever dreamed of it? Was it much harder than you thought? Was it immediately like, oh, this is even better than recruiting?
[00:04:42] Greg Muccio: Yeah, it's so funny story. It took me seven tries to get my first leadership job here and literally interviewed in what would be either, you know, we'd call either a team leader or supervisor role depending on what it was. And so, seven attempts before I finally got the yes, and oh, I, you know, certainly opportunity for doubt throughout that process as well. But yeah, I think probably when I made the first one, it was just like. How many times did I need to pinch myself? I'm like, did I really get a yes finally, and I've got a spot and, but yeah, it's been great.
I've loved it. I think, you know, as you mature through sort of a process and you just begin to get so much more from team success or individual's success that you're getting to guide and lead and work with versus your own, they're just, there's a point where that just, that part happens and it's just so so much more rewarding than things for yourself.
[00:05:47] Dave Travers: Yes. So take yourself back to that moment where you're somewhere between the third no and the seventh one that turned out to be Yes. And think about somebody today who's in that same role, who's thinking, I'm pretty good at this recruiting thing, but I'm thinking I might wanna be a leader. What advice would you give someone today, whether they're on your team or some other team? Like what should I think be thinking about as I make that leap?
[00:06:09] Greg Muccio: Yeah. I think one of the biggest ones, Dave, is that. When you're a recruiter and you know, in an organization like this, or you know, hey, I have a subset of customers that I work with in that individual contributor role. I have basically 100% responsibility of my brand and how I show up and how things happen, right? So it's my energy, it's my effort, it's my, you know, work ethic, all of those things that happen. And when you begin to lead people, and they then become your brand, right? And you have to realize you have to learn that folks may not be as into it as what you are, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. There could be levels of talent. I always, you know, like to, I'll give people example on my team. I'm like, if you notice in most sports. There's very rarely does the superstar become a coach. And I'm like, the reason why, right, is that a, they have God-given talent first and foremost, and then a lot of them are gym junkies.
I mean, they are students of the game and they work their tail off. And so part of it is they just can't handle one or the other. And I said, you know, that's why you see bench players or whatever, typically make it better. And so just. That's just a big caution is you've really gotta be ready for that. You've gotta be able to understand how to meet people where they are. You've gotta realize that whatever the tool is in your toolbox, so to speak, may not be the one that works for somebody else. And so you've gotta be able to adjust that. And then the just, I have to answer for an entire organization now, multiple groups, multiple people.
And so you just have to be able to accept that. And I, you know, I tell folks like, you gotta know that's something that you want to do., 'cause if you're not okay with that, leadership's gonna frustrate you for sure.
[00:08:05] Dave Travers: Yes. And I think that is so powerful because the things that make you successful as an individual contributor, where you're controlling your own brand, as you talked about it are things that will A, be ineffective and B, drive your best people crazy if you try to exact that much control on them once you're managing.
[00:08:22] Greg Muccio: Yeah. I mean, nobody that's really good necessarily out of the gate wants to hear you, oh, this is how I would do. It's like, well, okay. And you know, now I joke that when I look at, especially on the well across my entire org, especially the recruiter talent, I'm like, I think all, almost all of them would beat me out, hands down. I mean, they're just that much better recruiters. I mean, so I'm glad I made this step 'cause I would be probably replaced by them at some point in time in the recruiter role. But yeah, I think it's, you just gotta think differently. And then just too, you know, as you move through the leadership, right, your responsibilities and your scop change. And it just gets more and more. And you know, in the one that I'm now, sometimes I get the help with leadership interviews within the organization. And in those kind of conversations with individuals, I'm just like, you're making a move from a tactical leadership piece where you just have to really worry about your team and this function, or just a couple to, you've got a wide scope.
And not just mine, but my peer group. Right. And I can't just sit there and go, oh. All I wanna do is make sure TA is successful to the detriment of another group. It doesn't work that way. And so that's just another shift in that journey is understanding, being able to work and influence in that spectrum as well.
[00:09:44] Dave Travers: So true, managing is a very different skill, and I think that is very sage advice to think about the scope of and the lack of control that you have. As you start to get comfortable doing that, and then at the end, the reward that you're talking about, how meaningful it is when it's working. Okay. I wanna switch now to Southwest, an iconic company that so many of us know, and so many of us, like the first time we fly, we feel like this is different than the usual thing I'm I'm used to doing.
Tell us about how recruiting and talent acquisition, I imagine. Given how different it is to hear a pre-flight talk from a flight attendant or a captain is different on Southwest. I imagine talent acquisition may be different too. Tell us what's different about how Southwest approaches things.
[00:10:29] Greg Muccio: I think a couple of things I. And we're not the only company that's like this, but when your employer brand and your consumer brand are almost identical, I mean, they cross over so much. Right? And so that's one of the things that I'm always telling my team is that the lobby full of applicants are actually customers, and most of them are gonna get bad news today or tomorrow, or whenever it is, right? Because there's however many of them and only so many jobs. And so how do we create that process? How do we have an experience that is such that while someone might be getting bad news, they're like, yeah, I still am gonna go spend my money here, or whatever. And so that's just a massive responsibility.
And wait, when you begin to kind of think of it, and to your point. People that have flown on us and see that experience, they expect that experience from us as well. And so we have a heavy focus on candidate experience. I think the other pieces that I will tell everybody, or that I try and remind my team from time to time as I go throughout our history, there's no senior leadership group that has not made the mention that our people are, is what our secret sauce is, right? It's the planes and all this kind of stuff, but it's always the people that, it's our differentiating factor. And so I go, Hey, you know, so here's, as you mentioned, an iconic company, fortune, you know, whatever, all this kind of thing. And what has been, you know, relayed, is that the number one resource, the number one ting that sets us apart is our people. And I'm like, but 200 of us are, have that sole responsibility. Your sourcing, your sole role is to acquire what is considered. Our most competitive advantage over everybody else. And so just that when you frame it like that, it's daunting, but it also gives you some level of clarity and perspective of not only what you need to do, but what you can do, what you should be allowed to do, what in my role I can go ask for based on those sorts of things.
[00:12:45] Dave Travers: I think there's so much in there, but one that you started with that I really wanna push on. The realization that your applicants are your customers and probably disproportionately good customers, given they're, they applied. And I remember early in my career working at Disney when I was in the room with an executive, as the penny dropped for the executive, I. How much more applicants to Walt Disney World and Disneyland attend those parks than the average person? And how that completely changed our perception about how we should think about approaching the recruiting process. If somebody else is listening to this thinking for the first time, like, wow, I bet a lot of my customers are, and thought about it from that lens, how do you get the sort of customer-centric candidate experience ball rolling If you're just getting started, if you're not. Decades into this, like Southwest is, where would you begin?
[00:13:35] Greg Muccio: Yeah, I mean, I think it's always good, you know, in so many environments, I feel like to put yourself in someone else's shoes. And so if you've interviewed ever and you're in that waiting, I'm like, it's a nerve wracking experience, right? And so I go, you know, first of all, put yourself in their shoes, right?
So in that interview process, right? They're nervous, there's those sorts of things, but. I always try to make comparisons to other things for my team and go, okay, well, tell me if you were at a restaurant or a doctor's office, or you name it, any kind of place, like how long would you wait before being acknowledged? Before you would either say something or get up and leave? And I go, so why would we expect anyone different? Right? And to try and. Think through those sorts of things quite a bit, or compare it to, it's like, yeah, imagine if our customer service agents at the ticket counters at the gates, you stood in line and they didn't smile, or they didn't even look at you or whatever, versus trying to help giving you the most information you can.
And so to me, that's a big piece of it. I also think what's really important and what's happening a little bit organically through that process, hopefully, is you are also setting the example to someone that could potentially become an employee of yours, right? That says, okay, I treated you this way. I treated you with this level of hospitality response, whatever it may be.
That's the expectation when you walk in the door. Right. And I feel like that's a really important piece of that as well, is just to be able to do that. And I always tell somebody, I'm like the, especially back in the agency days, but even as a recruiter here, I was like, probably the biggest compliment I think you can get. Is to get a referral from somebody you don't hire or replace, because what they're saying is that the outcome that they were hoping for did not happen, but how you treated them throughout that process. They would refer a friend or family member to interact with you. And I'm like, there's just, I don't know that you can get a better compliment than that.
[00:15:52] Dave Travers: Oh wow. That's a powerful metric because you think about the statistics, you know, whether it's 80% or 90% or 99% of people who apply aren't gonna get for a particular role, aren't gonna end up getting the job. They're all customers. And how do you comfort yourself that you're running a process that really works? It's that they put it into action and say, well, you know, you should really talk to this person. I went through this process and that it seems like a great company. That's a very powerful metric.
[00:16:21] Greg Muccio: Yeah. And then frankly, I mean the volume of positions that we have it, it could also just be the timing didn't work. So if you're a talented person that we would wanna work here, he certainly wants you to apply again or whatever that may be. So there's just a lot of focus, you know, that's just what I would tell somebody is just kind of realize that, and especially as the labor market keeps shrinking and there's fewer and fewer candidates, what is that kind of marketing metric that like, okay, if you have a good experience, they tell like one or two, but if they have a bad experience, it's like in the seven to 10 range.
And I'm like, it's no different in recruiting. So if a candidate has a bad experience. They're more likely to go tell people, yeah, my experience with so-and-so at this location or whatever was horrible. I wouldn't interview for them. And so it's just, just try and constantly remind your team about that. You're just living in that kind of, especially this day with social media and all the things you're just, you were living in a world that just moves so fast,
[00:17:22] Dave Travers: It really does. Okay, so now let's double click on something that is something so many talent acquisition leaders are thinking about today, which is, how do I use new technology when and how do I use new technology? So you're a company that has to do this all the time in every part of your business. You just described so much about your company and the way you approach it, that it was all very people-driven driven and the purpose of, obviously, a lot of what you do is serving customers and is very people-driven, and yet technology is often a very good way of doing that.
So how do you think about where and when you want to embrace a new piece of technology that's gonna change something that's been previously sacrosanct about how you recruit? Versus, you know, sticking to this isn't how we've done it, it's worked so far, why mess with something that doesn't feel broken
[00:18:12] Greg Muccio: Kind of a fun story with that as well. But today I'm super proud of our tech stack. It's very powerful to the point where it is, I actually view it and measure it as like a member of our team. So when I think of, okay, we get our hiring forecast and. For example, there's this many tens of thousands of TA work units that have to be involved to make that done.
Our tech stack has to handle a certain percentage of that. They're not in a role. There are tasks and things that they do so that we can do that. And when we started this journey, what I just really anchored on is I wanted us to be high tech and high touch. I wasn't willing to sacrifice either one and, and the high-tech piece of it was to allow us more time for the high touch. And I remember when I first started the journey, I was in an offsite meeting and both my boss at the time and then the VP of the people department at the time had come to this event, and I just began the conversation that I was looking at this and it was deal stopper.
How dare you were all about the people. I can't believe you would think about doing this or whatever. And I was like, okay. All right. And it was, I think it was either a Monday or Tuesday. And I knew that they had obviously flew in from where we were from Dallas. And I go, Hey, did y'all fly out this morning? I'm asking an obvious question, right? And they're like, yeah. And I go, when you walked out, were there customers of ours at the kiosks helping themselves? And they were like, yeah. And I go, well, and were there customers still at the main ticket counter being helped by our people. And my VP that knew me really well knew that I was, that they had already stepped in the trap at that point in time or whatever.
And I said, so. Right. That's who we're all about. We brag about our people. Yeah. We have created something that, if you think about it, an individual literally could get on our plane and. Never speak to one of our people because they go and get their boarding pass or check their bag there. They go through TSA as they board the plane, maybe they have headphones on and they get into their seat and fall asleep without, and I go, and we've done that intentionally.
But look at it, it's also what they want to do. So I said, this person that knows how to help themselves or has a simpler task. It doesn't have to stand in a long line. Waiting just for that. The people that actually need the help aren't standing by behind a whole bunch of people with just that. And I said, so that's what I want to do as well. I'm like, so many of our jobs 'cause their union, the starting pay is a starting pay. There's zero negotiating with that or the hours or the location. And I'm like, so having somebody be able to interact with a bot or something like that and get that information and determine whether or not they wanna move forward versus having axle time with our recruiter to then ask those questions, only be told the same answer. You know, it just didn't make sense. So I got 'em there and then now it's really, really good. But you know, we really embrace that high-tech, high-touch piece of it a lot.
[00:21:27] Dave Travers: I love that story. And in addition to the merits of your argument, that was clearly effective in that case. What's really powerful is you made a technology argument in talent acquisition. Without using a bunch of talent acquisition and technology buzzwords, if you reduce it to the level of the customer. Then we're talking from a common framework, and it's not. I need this for talent acquisition, but you're worried about the finance.
You're worried about the legal whatever. It's like we can all agree we have the same customer, and so let's walk through a day in their shoes, and then all of a sudden you're on level ground and you're not speaking past them with words that don't mean anything for them. Coming from where they're coming from.
[00:22:07] Greg Muccio: Yeah. 100%. And then I think just kind of moving forward, we're really big because hiring for culture and all those things that we've already discussed. That's the one piece right now where I sort of really draw the line, like I'm not gonna let. The AI or the technology make that decision. It'll always be someone from our team. Now, the technology can help us with a ton of administrative stuff. We can do a lot of things, so the candidate is self-served and it even use the tools that maybe help prioritize candidates based on some things. But I do always want to make sure that we are involved in that process and that a candidate is getting that experience.
I think you gotta be careful of. How much of the human you take out of human resources. 'cause then you lose something that's there. But I also think because of the brand we are as well, that's highly, you know, customer, interactive and focused. I think that's just really important, and it's just really important to us. I realize others have I. You know, a business case to do it a different way, but that's just what's really big for us,
[00:23:09] Dave Travers: Greg, as we always end these episodes with a rapid-fire section. So I want you to pretend you've got the limited time of stepping into the elevator at headquarters, and all of a sudden, it's just the CEO walks in and is just you and the CEO and says, Hey Greg. I was thinking the other day, how should we measure the. Effectiveness of the talent team over the next year, what would your answer be?
[00:23:33] Greg Muccio: So we've been working on a thing we started at the end of last year, but that really kicked it off at the beginning of this year, where I left of rec. So it's sort of our rallying cry, right? And it's just about to get all of our, or as much as our activity left of rec, but the two big outputs from that. Are a reduction in the cost of vacancy, right? So it's just, it's a different, it's another way of saying the speed of hire, but when you begin to change it and work with the business to go, Hey, if we were able to fill your roles 20% faster than what we normally do. Is there a value in that at all? And there's not a single one that's not gonna say yes and then help you with that metric. And the other one is quality of hire, right? And like real quality of hire. You know, how fast do they hit the ground running? How ready? How into, you know, how excited are they to start?
To me, you referenced Disney. I would imagine that my family, we were Monster Disney fans and so I, I would imagine that people that work there, especially on that first day or whatever, is just that excitement that's there. And so I think those are the two really big things. And I, I always joke when somebody is like, why are those the two? And I'm like, well, I've been doing this, you know, recruiting thing for 20, 29 years now. I'm still waiting for a hiring leader to tell me we're going too fast for them and we're sending them too many good people. That's not happened. I'm not counting on it. So until that does, that obviously is something that really strikes a balance.
But I think for the audience that's listing, when you start really talking and shifting that conversation around the cost of vacancy and what that can mean, depending on your organization, depending on the role that you start speaking in a different level of. Terminology a different level to that suite of individuals that is like, okay, wait a minute. You were kind of a warm and fuzzy group and we weren't really sure, but wait a minute, you're showing me. 'cause we realize that this person creates a value every day that they're in this, where they, they're sales or it's operational or whatever, that they have this value. And I now understand that by getting them there sooner.
That we've reduced that, and then it has a financial bottom line to the company. And I, I just, I, I like that. And trying to shift that because I think it just. Really helps show the value of what TA can do for any organization.
[00:26:01] Dave Travers: Yeah. What I love about that, too, is that when you say the words cost of vacancy, people are immediately thinking about like, well, how much did I, the talent department, spend on this? Or whatever. But if you ever compare that to like, if we have a plane that's stuck on the ground, 'cause we don't have the people now. That's expensive.
[00:26:18] Greg Muccio: Yeah. We just, I actually had a meeting last week where even one of our SVPs were like. The cost of being overstaffed for this one particular group dwarfed. If we didn't have enough staffs, not even close to the conversation. So he was like, yeah, I want to adjust our approach. So the TA is able to be aiming for a little bit bigger number for us because it's just far more valuable.
[00:26:42] Dave Travers: I love it. I love it. Okay. One more rapid-fire question, which is. Same scenario, CEO walks into the elevator and says, Hey Greg, you're one of the most important parts of my job is to interview people, but you're the expert interviewer. Like, what's your best tip to make me a better interviewer?
[00:26:58] Greg Muccio: I think one would just have the end in mind, right? So we're. I think a lot of times it's like, Hey, I'm just gonna start asking questions and hopefully we end up at a hire or not a hire, right? And it's like, well, okay, make sure you understand like what this person's doing, what's their role, the contribution to that department, and so that it's, you're actually guiding questions, whether it's just you or the panel as whole, it's like, Hey, when this is done, when my 45 minutes, when our 45 minutes with this person, what are the things that I really need to know about them? You know, and whether that is to send them on to the next customer. Can you market them to the hiring leaders so that they really want to meet them and create that sense of urgency?
Or we get to an opportunity where we can. Make a decision, yes or no, whatever it is, but we've asked the questions in a way that we had the end in mind of what we're trying to accomplish.
[00:27:53] Dave Travers: Love that Greg Muccio. Such a clear example of a Talent All-Star. Such a pleasure to chat with you today. Thanks so much for joining us.
[00:28:01] Greg Muccio: Dave, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
[00:28:07] Dave Travers: That's Greg Muccio. He's the Managing Director of Talent Acquisition at Southwest Airlines. We'll drop his LinkedIn profile in the notes below. And just a reminder, we put the video versions of these conversations on YouTube, also on the official ZipRecruiter channel. If you have feedback for us or ideas for future episodes, send us an email at talentallstars@ziprecruiter.com. I'm Dave Travers. Thanks for listening to Talent All Stars, and we'll see you next time.