Mario Pennycooke never planned to end up in recruiting. He built a career in graphic design, sold cars at a Toyota dealership, then trained as an automotive technician before any of that pointed toward talent acquisition.
Mario is the Director of Talent Strategy at Hendrick Automotive Group, the largest privately owned dealership group in the country, with over 100 locations coast to coast. In this episode, he talks about why he treats every open role like something he's selling, how he coaches a team that all communicates differently toward the same results, and why AI still can't replace the judgment call of matching a candidate to the right dealership.
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Connect with Mario: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariopennycooke/
Learn more about Hendrick Automotive Group: www.hendrickcars.com
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[00:00:00] Mario Pennycooke: I look at being a recruiter as being a marketer. I mean, I have a marketing background; I have a marketing degree. I led a marketing department, but it's my job to market the open opportunities with our organization.
[00:00:13] Dave Travers: So what does it really take for your business to attract world-class talent today? I'm Dave Travers, president of ZipRecruiter, and on Talent All-Stars, we shine a light on the people and the day-to-day processes behind recruitment and retention at some of the world's most influential businesses.
Today's talent all-star is Mario Pennycooke, the director of talent strategy at Hendrick Automotive Group, the largest privately owned dealership group in the United States.
Before that, he worked in marketing and automotive sales, then recruited for an automotive technical school where he also trained as a technician. Today, he'll share how a lifelong passion for cars and an unconventional path through design, sales, and technical training led him into recruiting, why the best recruiters think like marketers and salespeople, and where human judgment still gives talent teams an edge over AI. Mario Pennycooke, welcome to Talent All-Stars.
[00:01:06] Mario Pennycooke: Oh, thank you for having me.
[00:01:07] Dave Travers: Awesome to have you. Um, so excited to talk to you, so much to dive into. But before we get into the present day, I want to talk a little bit about what got you here because your path to being a talent strategy leader wasn't straight up through recruiting at the beginning.
You have a creative background. You have a background in getting people ready for the workforce. So, so tell me a little bit about what, what-- when the moment came that drew you to recruiting and talent acquisition, what was that moment? What called you in, and what made you realize this might be, this might be a thing for me?
[00:01:40] Mario Pennycooke: You know, I'm the director of recruiting for Hendrick Automotive Group. We're the largest privately owned dealership group in the United States. We're actually celebrating our fiftieth-year anniversary this year. We actually span from coast to coast, and I'm really blessed to work for a company that allows me to incorporate both of my, both my professional as well as my personal interests.
You know, I grew up with a passion for cars. I love watching racing on TV. Just really was a gearhead. Um, I got that from my dad and my grandpa, who, uh, they were both machinists and welders. But I never really had anyone who gave me the opportunity to show me a path to make cars a career. And, you know, but I did have an interest in marketing and design and drawing and painting.
I took the design route through magnet programs in high school as well as going on to college for graphic design, and I minored in mass communications. I got into working for different organizations where I was leading their marketing and design initiatives. Worked for some Fortune five hundred companies.
Went back to school, got my MBA. And interestingly, on that journey with my MBA, I had a class on personal selling, which I'll be the first to tell you, I am not a natural gifted talker. I mean, that wasn't one of my callings initially. But I had this class on selling, and it was just one of those things where I was like, wow, you know- This is not something I'm good at, but it's something that intrigues me.
So later on in life, made a move from Florida, which is where I was living at, up to North Carolina, which I'm at now. Tried my hand at getting into the real estate field because that was hot at that time, but realized, man, Mario, you suck at selling. Uh, but I had a good friend of mine that said, "Mario, if you really want to get better at selling, you should go work at a car dealership," because my good friend, he worked in the automotive industry.
And I was like, "Pfft, the automotive industry? Selling cars? I just got my MBA. I'm too good for that." But, you know, I actually gave it a shot, went to work for a Toyota dealership, did that for a year, and my friend was absolutely right. That year gave me the best sales training that later helped me in other careers down the road.
It taught me a lot about the automotive industry. Uh, it was great mentorship on communicating with people, and I enjoyed it. I mean, I love that enjoyment that comes with your-- when you're helping someone to find the vehicle that they're looking for and love the competitiveness of working with other people.
But then later on, I got into some different roles that got me into the recruiting space, where I was actually recruiting for an automotive technical school, a school that was training folks to become automotive technicians. And I actually got a chance to actually go through the automotive program where I was actually learned how to fix cars.
So I actually went through an automotive program, and I'm a trained automotive technician, even though I didn't have a chance to work as an automotive technician. So that gave me the background where I've done automotive sales, but I'm very familiar with what it takes to be successful as an automotive technician.
From guiding folks to get into the industry and from working at that school, that led me to the opportunity where I'm at here at Hendrick Automotive Group.
[00:04:56] Dave Travers: Awesome. And so looking back at your background, there are several themes that come up, but one that comes up a few times is sales. And so now you're in a talent strategy role, but how does your experience in sales and developing those sales skills, how does that play in and dovetail nicely into connecting people to their next great opportunity or finding the right person to fill the next role?
[00:05:23] Mario Pennycooke: Well, you know, I look at, um, being a recruiter as being a marketer. I mean, I have a marketing background. I have a marketing degree. I led a marketing department, but it's my job to market the open opportunities with our organization. And yeah, there's some recruiters that may look at themselves as, "Hey, you know, it's my job to keep people out.
It's my job to filter through who gets through the door." And to some point, that is still our job as recruiters. However, we live in a world now that it's a very competitive environment for talent. When someone's looking for a position, they can be able to look in a million different places and look at so many different positions at any given time.
It's our job also to sell what makes Hendrick Automotive Group different. You know, why would you bring your talents to our company? So the sales background that I have previously, you know, I feel that we use that every day. I mean, we sell in how we communicate on job boards. We sell and when we're talking to a candidate about the benefits that we offer as a company, like, you know, no-cost health insurance.
I mean, that's a benefit that we always communicate to candidates that sets us apart from our competition. So even though we're recruiters, you know, we're still marketers, we're still salespeople, and, you know, that's the approach that I take every day in my role.
[00:06:41] Dave Travers: And so if I think of myself, I'm a young up-and-coming person who's a recruiter, and I think of myself as like, "Well, I don't wanna be a salesperson, but I love talking to people and I love interviewing people."
If I'm thinking about how do I level up my game, how do I embrace the sales aspect? If you see somebody who's got a lot of potential but needs to embrace the fact that, to your point, they're, they're putting, they're putting their best foot out there to try to get the best talent to the company, how do you coach someone up to, to think that way?
[00:07:08] Mario Pennycooke: Well, you just have to remember that candidates have choices, right? Um, just like, you know, you're choosing from a stack of resumes who you may wanna talk to. A candidate may have, you know, five, 10, 15, 20 jobs that they're looking at. So it's really important for you to set yourself apart because as a company, we've had folks that we've connected with that we really like, and we really want to offer them an opportunity, but then ultimately they choose to go take their talents elsewhere.
And you know, that may be for a variety of reasons. Maybe we didn't communicate the value of why you should come to Hendrick Automotive Group. We didn't, uh, express how good our benefits are or the environment or the culture, you know, which is one of the things that set us apart. So it's important for us to communicate in a way that really shows that this is a place that you should come to work.
So even though it's not a transactional sale in that sense, you're not buying a car, you're not getting your oil changed, but it still is sales in some way, shape, or form.
[00:08:07] Dave Travers: I love that. I think that's so true in, in such a profound sense of what you're doing, even if you're, even if you're opening up an opportunity to somebody that they're excited about, it's still sales, and you still wanna set expectations and close the deal and all those things.
Okay, so another aspect of your career, obviously, is, is you've gone from being an individual contributor in a couple different roles to now being a leader and a manager and a manager of leaders. How do you think about that transition? How did you go from being, like, somebody who learned sales and made their way into the talent strategy side of things, um, within a sales-driven organization to now I'm gonna be someone who teaches others and builds a system for others to do that? What was that like?
[00:08:48] Mario Pennycooke: I've been really blessed that I have had some really amazing leaders and mentors that I've worked on under previously. And I tried to learn as much as I could from all of those leaders. Yeah, everyone has their own leadership style. You know, here at our company, we use a system called MBS, Management by Strengths, where we kind of identify each individual's communication styles.
Some people are more direct, some people are more structural. They want you, you know, you really have to explain every little thing to them. Some people are more conversational. I mean, I kind of fall into that silo. And then there's some people that they would just rather you send them an email. So everyone is a little bit different.
And as a leader, it's important for me to recognize that everyone in my team is a little bit different. They like to communicate differently, and they like to be communicated to differently. So even though I may have all these things that I've learned in my journey and my career, I need to filter that in a way that's going to be impactful for my team and help them to be successful in their roles.
I don't expect my teammates to do their role exactly the same because they're all individual people. Uh, but I do expect them to produce the same great results at the end of the day.
[00:10:05] Dave Travers: I think that is very wise. So when you're adapting to somebody new, they've also got to adapt to you. And if that's, as a new leader of a team, what's that like?
Like, how do you, how do you f- how do you decide, 'cause you've got your own management by strengths, you know, traits. How much do they, do you have to demand that someone adapts to your style, and how much are you as a leader need to be flexible at adapting to others?
[00:10:29] Mario Pennycooke: I think just communicating. Communicating expectations, communicating when things aren't to my expectations, and also communicating how you can do things differently. Especially in recruiting, you know, I look at my team as a group of experienced, skilled professionals, and I treat them with that respect. But I still have expectations because I know our organization has expectations, Mr. Hendrick has expectations.
So I just want to make sure that we're all meeting those expectations and exceeding them in a way that's gonna help our company to get to our goals.
[00:11:03] Dave Travers: Yeah. Speaking of your goals, you referenced that it's a challenging market to recruit for top talent in many different areas and many different locations and types of skills, et cetera.
If I'm a first-time talent acquisition leader, if I'm a first-time person taking over this role and my boss says, the chief people officer or the CEO or whomever says to me, "We need a talent strategy. Like, this is really competitive. We've just promoted you into this new role 'cause we need a, you know, somebody to really drive this."
How would you recommend somebody starts? Like, how would you get a talent strategy off the ground?
[00:11:42] Mario Pennycooke: Well, you know, the interesting thing is for recruiting, recruiting typically gets lumped under the HR banner. Um, and there's not really schools or degrees specifically for recruiting. There aren't even really any certifications for recruiting like there are for more the HR side.
So recruiting is its own little animal, but to me, it's the front end of the business when it comes to, you know, acquiring talent. So you really have to figure out a way that works best for your industry. Every industry is slightly different. You know, if you're looking for salespeople, might be different than if you're looking for programmers.
Sometimes recruiters are best if they have actually worked in that industry, and they understand the terminology from the inside out. But you don't necessarily have to be an engineer to be, uh, good at recruiting engineers, but you need to be at least willing to understand the right talk, right? You, you really have to understand what's important for that hiring manager.
I'm blessed that I had the opportunity to go through an automotive training program, so when I'm recruiting technicians, it's really easy for me to talk the talk. I understand, you know the technical terms. I understand the metrics that technicians are, are graded by. And so even if you don't necessarily have a background in the industry, just being willing to understand the industry that you're getting involved with is really important to be successful as a recruiter.
[00:13:13] Dave Travers: Yeah. I think that is so smart to be able to engage a candidate in a conversation as a, a understanding what the environment is they're gonna be going into and talk in that, in that language as opposed to say, "Well, I'm just the interviewer," you know? Well, you know, "I, I don't know that role." I think that's incredibly powerful.
[00:13:30] Mario Pennycooke: People like to talk about themselves. It's flattering when someone wants to get to know you. It's flattering when someone wants to understand, you know, your skill set, uh, and what makes you special. So just being able to sometimes unlock that and get to know someone, but get to know them, you know, not only in their technical skill sets, but also get to know them, what's important for them.
Because someone might be getting well paid, they may like certain aspects of their job, but maybe there's something that's missing, and it's up to the recruiter, just like a good reporter, to kind of dig deep and figure out, all right, what is this person looking for? What is gonna be the hot button that's really going to make them change a position?
And that's no different than, you know, if you're selling a car. What's gonna make someone choose the Sienna over the Odyssey, right? Something might be important to one family that they may choose one vehicle. Something may be important to a different family that they may choose another. And as a recruiter, your company might offer great pay, but maybe it's missing something that's important to that candidate, but maybe you do have something that their company doesn't have, and just being able to, willing to present that information so that candidate can make a good decision.
[00:14:43] Dave Travers: Yeah. Absolutely. No, I think, I think also to your point about you've got to know the company and know the strengths and weaknesses you're bringing to the table so you can sell the Sienna versus the Odyssey, despite the fact that not every candidate's gonna have the same set of preferences.
I think that's super smart. The other thing that's happening, obviously, to all of us in the world right now, and this is equally true in the talent strategy world, is that AI is something that everyone's asking about. There's so much noise and a cacophony of value propositions and pitches and companies out there selling their wares and expla- Meaning, well, it's AI.
How do you cut through the noise in deciding what you should do, what Hendrick should do next in deciding amongst all this signal, and we've got to do more and feeling like we're behind, that everyone I think is feeling in this realm. How do you decide what should we actually do next? How do you set that AI strategy for talent?
[00:15:38] Mario Pennycooke: That seems to be the buzzword of the year, right? AI, AI, AI. My LinkedIn inbox is filled with different folks proposing different AI products to me, and I have taken the time to look at some different AI products. And our company is forward-thinking enough that we've actually embraced AI in different aspects of the business.
We use AI with helping us to sell cars. So if you're inquiring into a Sienna or an Odyssey, we can help you with selecting the right vehicle through some AI products. Or maybe you own a Sienna or Odyssey, and you wanna bring it in for service, um, you can actually set an appointment using AI products.
On our side of the business, on the recruiting side, I have looked at some different products, and they do offer some value, especially in scale. Uh, if you're a company that you're especially looking to hire a lot of folks into a specific role, some of those AI products can help you with that. But I haven't really seen a product that is really strong on determining quality and being able to figure out the right fit.
We have over a hundred locations, and every one of our location is its own company. It's its own spirit. It has a different leader, and those leaders may have different MBS badges. So that's where I'm really blessed to have an awesome team, that they can speak with a candidate and figure out, "All right.
You know, I know you applied for a job at our Toyota dealership, and, uh, we do have an opportunity there. But from talking with you, it sounds like you may be a better fit for our Kia dealership, which might be across the street." And so that's where that human element really still sets itself apart from some of these AI products, is really making a quality determination.
You know, maybe years from now, the products might allow, you know, maybe get to the point where it can do those type of determinations. But for right now, I think I'll pick my team over any AI product that I've seen so far.
[00:17:39] Dave Travers: I think it's so interesting what you just talked about how each dealership is their own business.
So as a strategist and as a leader, you obviously have this, you know, responsibility at the Hendrick Automotive level across the hundred locations. And at the same time, as you said, you know, different locations are a little bit different. How do you decide what, what is a uniform practice value, something that is global that we always do when we're looking for a candidate or how we do something or implement a process, and how do you decide this is an area where I really wanna honor the differences between two dealerships, even if they're across the street from each other?
[00:18:17] Mario Pennycooke: You do have to have standards. You know, Mr. Hendrick has a, uh, a very high standard of excellence, and we strive to achieve that each and every day And as recruiters, you want to present that in everything that you do because, you know, you're the, the first touch, um, the first impression that a candidate is going to get of this organization.
So it's important for us to be able to set a good foot forward and be able to treat everyone with the same respect, give them all the same chance to be considered for an opportunity. So you really do wanna make sure that you're promoting excellence in everything that you do as a recruiter. Now, when it actually comes to You actually getting to know someone, and once you get to understand that candidate, and you get to look at their resume, see what their background is, perhaps you have a conversation and see what their goals are, what their interests are, what their aspirations are professionally.
That's where you then may have to make a pivot. But if you understand, you know, your landscape in terms of what opportunities are available at that moment in your organization, that's where, you know, it's up to you. It's your job as a recruiter to say, "All right. Let's get you to the right person. You know, maybe you're a good fit but not a good fit right now because we don't have the right role for you."
And being able to communicate to the candidate honestly, openly, and with respect whether or not you move forward in the process with them.
[00:19:39] Dave Travers: One thing I love is that, uh, you, you've talked a couple of times about how you have a high standard. The high standard starts at the top. And what's great about that, back to your sales background and conversation, part of the conversation we had, is that nothing's more appealing as a candidate than to hear, "Hey, we're an organization that has a very high standard, and we'd like you to move to the next step in this process."
Like, already I'm like, "Oh, these guys are great. They see how great I am." It's not... You know, no, no one wants to hear like, "The good news is you're moving forward. The bad news is we actually have low standards, so that's no big deal." No one wants to hear that, so I love, I love how you keep coming back to that and that how that's a global truth and that you're giving that autonomy and, and recognizing the differences between locations.
Okay. We always end these episodes with what we call the lightning round. So I want you, I want you to, um, imagine that Mr. Hendrick comes up next to you in the... or your boss or whomever comes up next to you in the around getting a cup of coffee at the, at headquarters or something like that, and you have just 60 seconds or so to answer a question.
And I'll play that role, and I come up and I say, "Hey, Mario. You know, I've been thinking about the talent acquisition and the recruiting team overall and how critical getting top talent is to our organization. How should we measure the success of your team and the performance of your team over the coming year?" What would you say?
[00:21:02] Mario Pennycooke: Well, the things that I obsess about that, you know, first thing Monday morning when I, you know, come in the doors is that I'm, I'm looking at how many open job requisitions that we have and the age of those job requisitions. I mean, what our time to hire? Because if we have positions that are staying open for, you know, weeks or months, then, you know, that's an issue.
Um, we have to figure out how can we pour a little more fuel on that fire to help us to find the right candidate. And if we're seeing a lot of job requisitions, or maybe we're seeing the same job requisition come up again and again and again, you know, then we need to maybe dig a little deeper. Because even though I'm on the recruiting side, I try to pay attention to the turnover of the, um, organization or the turnover of a particular store because, you know, if there's an issue with, you know, we're Blowing through teammate after teammate in a specific role, well, what can my team do differently to find a slightly different candidate for that position that may be more successful in that, uh, that part of the organization?
So the how many requisitions, how old they are, and the turnover are really the things that I really pay a very close attention to. And I'm really proud to say that last year we actually had our best year of turnover in our, uh, entire history, which is now fifty years in the automotive industry.
[00:22:25] Dave Travers: Amazing. I think in a competitive environment, that is a really big accomplishment. And I also think talking about speed and how fast. As I see the racing helmet over one shoulder and a, you know, what looks like a racing trophy over the other shoulder behind you, I, I, I can envision that, that saying we need to move fast would resonate as a metric.
Okay, one more lightning round. Same scenario. I walk up next to you. I'm the, I'm the CEO or your boss at, at headquarters, and I say, "Mario, what's the one skill that our talent leaders and the people in recruiting really need to develop over the next couple years to achieve our goals and to be successful? What do we need more of?" What would you say?
[00:23:06] Mario Pennycooke: Well, I think as a recruiter, if you're, if you don't have the ability to develop good relationships, especially with your hiring manager, it's gonna really be hard to be a successful recruiter because you need to have a strong relationship with your hiring manager so that they can trust you.
And that trust is earned by showing that you understand their needs. That comes from having very good intake calls. That comes from communicating efficiently. And if you can have a strong relationship with your hiring manager that they will put their trust in you that you're the one that's gonna find them the teammate that's going to help them to achieve their goals, that's the number one thing, right?
If you don't have that, then nothing else matters because you could be really good at understanding technology, you could be great at using job boards like ZipRecruiter, but if you're doing those things but you're not understanding the goal, which the goal is to find a, a good candidate for your hiring manager, then nothing else really matters.
So a strong relationship with your hiring manager is important, but also being able to quickly develop a good relationship with your candidate, that's also important as well, too. No different than what we look for when we're looking for a, a, a successful car salesperson. You know, when someone comes on the lot and they're looking for a vehicle, good car salespeople, they're able to build that relationship very quickly, and they're also able to have a very strong needs assessment before they get into the part where they're trying to start presenting a specific vehicle.
And again, yeah, as a recruiter, you really have to be able to build those relationships for the long term so that you can help the organization to be successful.
[00:24:50] Dave Travers: Let's double-click for a second 'cause I love that answer on the hiring manager relationship. So if I'm a young recruiter who's got all the skills, started off great, is building rapport with candidates, managing a pipeline, is clearly motivated, but is just keep skipping, in my early days, I keep skipping the really developing a great relationship with the hiring manager.
Coach me, uh, like 101 hiring manager. I got all the potential to do it, but I haven't been doing it yet. Coach me on how to become better at, at developing hiring manager relationships.
[00:25:23] Mario Pennycooke: Well- not just with my current role, but even with other organizations I've worked with. I mean, I've had folks that I've had to support in different roles where they were very pleasant to work with, and they were open, and we had a great relationship.
And then you have some folks that, you know, as you would with any organization, that, you know, you have to treat them like a hostile witness. Um, that they're very tough to, tough to, to get along with. But you may not have a good open relationship, but you still have to work together, and you still have to work towards helping the company to get to their goals.
And that's where you just have to figure out how to meet people where they're at. Uh, that's where you may have to bend how you typically communicate. Maybe if you're a person that likes to talk, maybe then you listen more, and maybe if you're a person that likes to send an email, hey, maybe you need to get out your seat and go visit that person face to face.
So just being willing to try to find a way to communicate with that hiring manager, because at the end of the day, without the hiring manager having a need, they don't need you as a recruiter, right? So it's your job to figure out how to best support that hiring manager in a way that you can build a relationship.
So every relationship is not gonna look the same. You know, some folks are gonna be more open than others. But at the end of the day, it's just trying to help the organization to meet the goals, meet their goals. So just trying to figure out a way to make it happen.
[00:26:48] Dave Travers: Great. I love it. Mario Pennycooke, it is clear why you're a Talent All-Star. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today.
[00:26:55] Mario Pennycooke: Well, thank you so much for the opportunity.
[00:27:01] Dave Travers: That's Mario Pennycooke. He's the director of talent strategy at Hendrick Automotive Group. We'll put his LinkedIn profile in the notes below. And just a reminder, we put the video versions of these conversations on YouTube, also on the official ZipRecruiter channel. If you have feedback for us or ideas for future episodes, send us an email at talentallstars@ziprecruiter.com.
I'm Dave Travers. Thanks for listening to Talent All-Stars, and we'll see you right back here next time