WVU Medicine is the largest health system and private employer in West Virginia. Over the past decade, it has grown from 6 hospitals to 25 and now employs more than 35,000 people. As the state’s leading provider of advanced care from cancer to neurology to pediatrics, WVU Medicine has had to rethink how it attracts, develops, and retains talent.
Leeann Kaminsky, Senior Vice President and Chief Human Resources Officer, has led that strategy since 2016. In this episode, she explains:
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[00:00:00] Leeann Kaminsky: The days of posting a job and praying that someone applies is no longer okay. We just can't do that. We can't operate that way.
[00:00:09] Dave Travers: So what does it really take for your business to attract world-class talent today? I'm Dave Travers, President of ZipRecruiter, and on Talent All Stars, we shine a light on the people and the day-to-day processes behind recruitment and retention at some of the world's most influential businesses.
Today's Talent All-Star is Leeann Kaminsky, Senior Vice President and Chief Human Resources Officer at WVU Medicine, West Virginia's largest health system and largest private employer. Since 2016, Leeann has led HR strategy through a period of rapid expansion, guiding the system's growth from six hospitals to more than two dozen.
In this conversation, Leeann unpacks the internal education programs WVU has built to move employees directly into critical roles, how they use data and technology to drive decision-making for a workforce of 35,000 people, and why simply raising your hand can set you apart early in your career. Leeann, welcome to Talent All Stars.
[00:01:07] Leeann Kaminsky: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:09] Dave Travers: So excited to have you. So WVU West Virginia Medical, a huge brand in your state and known well beyond. So I want to get to all that comes with that. But first, I wanna start with earlier in your journey, when, along the way on your path to being a senior executive, did you realize that being a people team leader might be a calling for you?
Well, you know, it took me a little while because I did not start out thinking I was going to be in this field called HR when I graduated from college, and I'm gonna date myself in 1996, I didn't really know what HR was, and I had a degree in communications and I worked for a radio station, and I was a promotions coordinator there, and it was probably one of the funnest jobs I've ever had. But again, it was one of those jobs that you can't really live off of.
had to have a second job, bartending at the time, and you know, I got into that because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I started out in college, actually. I thought I wanted to be an elementary school teacher.
You know, when I graduated high school, I said, I'm gonna go to college. I'm gonna get a degree in education. I'll have my summers off. I thought that was gonna be so cool. And then. Probably around my first semester of my junior year, I started going into the classrooms, and there were all these tiny little kindergarten kids, like standing on their chairs and all talking out loud at once, not raising their hands.
And I just like was, whoa, this is way too much for me. I don't ever think I'm gonna be able to contain 30 children in their seats. And I just thought, I don't think this is for me. And so I changed my major when I was a junior, and I really picked communications at the time because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do.
And you know, my advisor said, Hey, credits you've taken so far, this would be probably a good path for you. You can kind of then figure out what you wanna do. But I loved my first job, and I learned a lot there, but I also learned what I didn't want to do or things I didn't want to see. The person that ran the station, he was a great guy, but boy , did he have a temper.
Um, and so I saw him lose it a couple times on the sales staff, and I thought to myself like, this isn't what it's supposed to be like. I really don't think this is what's it's supposed to be like in the work environment. Um, and then I got introduced to. A master's program in human resource management. A friend of mine was involved in it and was telling me about it, and I looked into it, and it really intrigued me.
And so I actually decided to go back to school and get my master's degree. And that's really what got me on the path of hr. And then I started my career. My first HR job in recruiting, so my first job was a recruiter and loved it.
[00:04:18] Dave Travers: What did you love about recruiting? What drew you there?
[00:04:20] Leeann Kaminsky: You know, as a young professional, what I loved was having the opportunity to talk to people about the job.
Making the offer for the job was the most exciting part because. I can't tell you how many times people would be like, Oh my God, I'm so excited. Like yes. Like, you know, they were so excited to come to work for us, and that made me feel good, right? I'm thinking I'm doing a good thing. I'm hiring someone that's excited, that's engaged, that wants to come to work for us.
And it was awesome. And that was late nineties, and so at that time, HR functioned a little bit differently, and folks back then grew more into a generalist role where you did both recruitment and employee relations. And so then I started getting more heavily involved in employee relations. And I also liked that too because it was solving problems and helping advise leaders on what's the right thing to do.
And some of the things that you would hear about that people would do when they would come to work. You would be like, My God, did that seriously happen? But you know, I always looked at it as job security, right? Because, you know, here we are to help guide and advise our leaders on, you know, our policies and our procedures.
But as I grew into, you know, more of that generalist role, I started getting pushed more towards kind of being more of a lead in that consultant type role versus doing the recruitment because it also is very hard to manage your day. You're dealing with an employee issue, but then you also are trying to recruit to fill jobs.
Which one's more important? And so when you're the person in that seat trying to decide, okay, do I call to make this offer or do I deal with this issue that this leader's having with an employee? And so. I then chose to move on to that more HR consultant type role to deal with the, you know, heavier issues with managers and giving them guidance and advice and being more of a strategic business partner with them versus the recruitment piece, because then that just started to fascinate me a lot more.
[00:06:48] Dave Travers: You very humbly sort of, you know, glanced over where you were pulled into leadership there. So, but I think lots of people start their careers and they can't wait to be pulled into leadership. Like, do you just wait to be pulled? How does that happen? How did it happen for you? How do you coach other people to have that moment happen for them?
[00:07:07] Leeann Kaminsky: I think I had really good mentors, and that gave me a lot of opportunity. And one of the things that I always tried to do, whether I really wanted to or not, I would always raise my hand and volunteer for something, right? Just to get the experience or to get to know somebody a little bit better, or to work with a different group of people, just because I wanted to learn more, and I wanted to have the opportunity.
And I think with the mentors that I had, they really really would try to guide me to push me to do that. And they had confidence in me, which gave confidence in myself, and it made me feel comfortable doing that. And to be quite honest, when I had my first actual leadership position, it wasn't because I thought I was ready or I wanted to apply for something.
My leader at the time was leaving the organization and taking a position outside of the organization, and she said to me, I recommend for you to take my job to the CEO. And I said, what? You did what? And I said, why did you do that? And she said, well, Leeann, she was like, you know this place inside out, you know how all the systems work.
You know who to go to to get things done. And I just think, I think you're ready. I think you would be a great leader. And you know, she said, I think you will do a better job than I did. You know how to politically deal with issues. It was a matrixed organization, so something that she wasn't used to working in.
And so she recommended me, you know, for the job. And I said, well, okay. So they put me in the position on an interim basis, and then I went through and interviewed with a ton of people. I'm talking 30-some people.
[00:09:08] Dave Travers: Whoa.
[00:09:10] Leeann Kaminsky: At the time, I thought, oh my God, if I don't get this job, you know, after all this. But yeah, you know, I was given the opportunity, and I was really thankful because I was young. I was a very young leader. I think I was 31 at the time.
[00:09:27] Dave Travers: So I'm gonna take a stab at something. As I hear that story, and you tell me if you think this is right, you told that story where you know you were selected before you had confidence in yourself, and that you had great mentors. But I think that was highly connected, I'm guessing to what you said at the beginning, which is you were a person who raised their hand.
To volunteer for things and take on a project, even if it wasn't the dream project you've been waiting for. But there was a reason, I would guess, why mentors and why your boss who was moving on to the next thing knew you and had confidence in you, which is you had put yourself in that position and you didn't wait for perfect.
You saw an opportunity and you said, I'm gonna learn. I'm gonna get to know these people better. And as a result, they saw in you, maybe before you even saw in yourself what could be.
[00:10:14] Leeann Kaminsky: I would. I would agree with that. Absolutely.
[00:10:16] Dave Travers: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Okay, so now you've risen all the way through the ranks.
You're the lead of the whole HR team, you're the Chief People Officer, and you are at the top of a massive organization. So now, as you think about what is required for people who are starting today on that journey, who think, I'm just at the beginning now, but I want to make it all the way to be a chief people officer.
How would you advise someone? What advice would you give along the way to somebody who has that interest in that capability and that ambition?
[00:10:50] Leeann Kaminsky: You know, I think the advice I would give them would be similar to my experience is to ask to be involved. Raise your hand when people are asking for volunteers to do things.
Because what I found was I would be in meetings and they might be talking about a new project that's happening, and they're looking for volunteers to work on something, and the leader would say, Do we have any volunteers? Does anyone wanna do this? And you'd look around the room, and no one would raise their hand.
And so I'd be like, okay, well I'll do it if nobody else is gonna, you know, I mean, why not? You know? Why not take the chance and get that new experience? You're never gonna know if you're gonna like it or enjoy it or do well if you don't try. And so I think it's about putting yourself out there and making sure that you are giving yourself the opportunities to learn and grow, because that's the only way I think that you are gonna progress is that you have to put your best foot forward so that you can be recognized.
[00:12:05] Dave Travers: I think being in that role of being that first time when you feel almost you're hand raising rather than you choosing to raise it yourself feels really scary.
Feels like I'm putting myself out there, and I don't know exactly what I'm doing. I'm not sure I wanna do this really, and I don't know if I'll succeed, and what if I fail? But give the perspective now of being the leader. When you're in a room of at a team meeting or whatever and someone raises their hand, how does that feel as a leader? Like, how does that shape your impression of the person?
[00:12:36] Leeann Kaminsky: What makes me feel good that someone is wanting to participate, wanting to give back, wanting to learn, you know, it makes me feel good that they want to be part of that. It shows me that they're engaged in the work. And we often see a lot of the same people that do that, you know, over and over again because they do, they wanna learn, and they wanna be part of. Um, I have found that people like to have their voice heard, right?
[00:13:04] Dave Travers: Yeah.
[00:13:05] Leeann Kaminsky: And they like to contribute, and they wanna be a part of something bigger. And I think that's part of the reason why my team has been able to do the work that we've done over the last nine years. Because we have gone through some significant changes.
I mean, because when I started out here, we had six hospitals and 14,000 employees, and today we have 25 hospitals and over 35,000 employees. And we initially, with the six hospitals, when I came on board, I was the first system leader in hr. We didn't, there was no system hr, it was me and I had to build a team.
I had to create an operating model. And our CEO, who is a really amazing leader, he said to me, We are gonna grow, and I need you to create a model that's gonna be scalable for growth. It's gotta happen fast. And I said, okay, well, how fast are we talking? And he said, like, less than two years. And I was like, whoa.
And you know, we did it. We created the model, and it's all because of the people that are on the team. I didn't do it myself. I had an idea. And then the rest of the people that we brought on board, they're the ones that really made it happen. If I didn't have that group of people, we wouldn't be where we're at today.
So I really give credit to the team for getting us there.
[00:14:49] Dave Travers: I love the beginning of that, where to you it feels good as when someone raises their hand, and to a young person who's raising their hand for the first time. It's scary, and you're thinking about failure, but I think it's really important for young people to hear.
The word failure did not come up at all for you as a leader when you see someone raise their hand, you're not worried about them failing. You're just feeling good. And so you wanna be a hand raiser in early in your career. I think that's so valuable and powerful. But then, okay, let's talk about, you pivoted beautifully to the change that you've driven and the expansion you've overseen at West Virginia Medical.
Okay, so now, as you are expanding an organization at that scale, there's no. playbook, there's no, you know, you can't call upon the last three times you expanded to 35,000 people in your career. There's not a hotline to call where it's like, oh, we're the people who expanded you to 35,000. How do you approach a project like that when a CEO comes to you and gives you an impossible task, but you know, maybe possible?
How do you approach? How do you get started? How do you be the person who's like, okay, I can do this.
[00:15:55] Leeann Kaminsky: Yeah. Well, at first it was building the team right? I knew what the operating model looked like because I worked in an organization that was highly integrated, and so I knew what it needed to look like, and so it was just putting those pieces together.
We didn't build it exactly like it was from one of my past experiences, but it was putting those pieces together, and what we had to do was then integrate everything. So we had to integrate all of our benefit programs, retirement, all of our policies and procedures, paid time off, holidays, anything that you can think of, every one of those six hospitals, they did it differently.
And if you were an employee working at one hospital and you wanted to apply to a job to quote unquote, transfer to another hospital, you couldn't do it. We couldn't recognize your service because they had a completely different benefit plan, and there was nothing within in those programs that permitted transfer of service.
So I mean, we had to create all of that. And so we've now made it so easy for people, number one, to transition and come onto our platform. And then number two, once they're part of the system. One of the greatest part of parts of being part of a large system like this is the ability for the support and the resources that you have, not only at the system level, but at all of the different hospitals where your experience, maybe at this hospital today, but there might be an opportunity at a hospital, you know, 30 miles down the road.
Where you could move into a different higher-level position, and you can do it so easily, and take everything with you, and you don't lose anything. And so that's been, I think, a great thing for employees in the organization to have that mobility that they wouldn't have had, that they didn't have.
[00:18:12] Dave Travers: Back in 2016, mobility is opportunity. No doubt about that. I love that. Okay, so let's talk about, you're in healthcare and you're in markets where the talent pool isn't always for super highly skilled role. You don't always have a bunch of talent standing by in the local market. How do you even approach for something as important as medicine and operating large medical centers and all the patients that are relying on you?
How do you approach developing a strategy to get the people you need when you need 35,000 great people to care for your patients?
[00:18:44] Leeann Kaminsky: First of all, you need great data analytics. We have amazing people that do data analytics on our team in hr and. They track what we call our critical workforce segments, and so there are certain jobs that we know we really need to be following.
We need to understand what our needs are now today and what they're gonna be over the next 10 years. We're looking at the Bureau of Labor Statistics to see how many people are out there. Available to do this type of work. We're looking at what our needs are gonna be based on just attrition, but then also with growth.
And so we're really staying close in monitoring those critical workforce segments. And those are things like nurses, respiratory therapists, radiologists, surgical technicians, CRNAs. Now, that's another big thing. Highly competitive market for all of these jobs, and not enough institutions that are putting people out there.
Right? So we've done a ton of workforce planning and. As part of that, we've had to create our own programs. So we've created our own nursing diploma program. We've created relationship with West Virginia University, a respiratory therapy program. We've created our own internal surgical technician program to train surge techs.
We have our own internal radiology programs. So these are things that we are doing to make sure that we are creating pipelines for ourselves, so they're feeders so that we have qualified individuals to go into these jobs. Some of it's gonna take time, for example, like the CRNA program, that's a newer program.
It takes three years for students to go through it, but we're investing in it because we know we need those people to be here and to stay here to help take care of the patients so that we can do the right thing for our customers and our patients in our service area.
[00:21:07] Dave Travers: That's so wise and also gives a view into how long-term your planning is. Because if you're thinking I'm gonna start a respiratory therapist program at West Virginia University, holy cow, like it's gonna take a minute before you have some respiratory therapist coming out. So how do you, in the meantime, because you also have operating rooms that have a patient and have a doctor that can provide medical care and need medical care, but it requires a whole bunch of other people to operate an operating room or an MRI machine or whatever that is.
In the meantime, as you're solving these long-term problems, what do you do to take care of the urgent while you're doing these long-term, important projects?
[00:21:52] Leeann Kaminsky: So it's a highly competitive market. Highly, highly competitive, and. It's become even more competitive since we've lived through this COVID Pandemic, and a lot of it is around doing creative things with sign-on bonuses, or if we have people that work for us that want to go into one of our own programs where we'll pay for them to go to the program for free as long as they can make a commitment to work for us for a couple years after they finish the program.
Some of the programs are shorter than others. Like, for example, the search tech program, that's a six-month program, so we can train those folks pretty quickly and get them through, and they're working.
It's just some of these larger ones, so a lot of it is being really good at sourcing, so our recruiters are doing a ton of really active sourcing. The days of posting a job and praying that someone applies is no longer okay; that we just can't do that. We can't operate that way. And so we're, we're doing extra training with our recruiters.
Um, we're actually using a program called Rogue Hire. It's a training academy for our recruiters to really give them. The right skills to be able to truly source and know how to spend their time actively recruiting and getting those passive candidates, people that might not really be looking or applying for a job, as well as just, you know, sometimes we have to do creative things like the sign-on bonuses.
We've done retention bonuses with existing employees because we wanna make sure that we're keeping those folks committed to us as well. But long-term, the solution is truly the workforce development and planning for the future. We have to have that.
[00:24:04] Dave Travers: Yeah. There's a supply and demand problem, and you gotta fix the supply problem. That makes total sense. But in the immediate term. I love how you framed that out. When you're searching for super high-demand, low supply sources of talent. Just posting the job isn't enough. No question. And so what you laid out was so smart.
One is you need to go out and find people where they're at, where they're happily employed, 'cause they're highly in demand. So they're probably not just spending all day searching, and you have to have a team that is capable of going out and doing that and following up immediately when you have a sign that somebody might be interested.
That is spot on. Now, here's the question. You talked about signing bonuses, and it connects back to something, you know, signing bonuses isn't something in a nonprofit kind of context that is normally thought of, but you talked earlier about your first step in starting a process is starting with the data, which is not something that is always the intuitive people, team, HR team's, modus operandi.
So how do you get comfortable when you come up through recruiting and you come up through being an HR consultant and HR generalist, how do you build up the wherewithal and the capability and the confidence to say, okay, we're gonna, I know we're the people team, but we're gonna start with the data.
How do you do that for somebody who's coming up through that, who start got into this, 'cause they're into people. How do I say? Okay, we're gonna start with data.
[00:25:32] Leeann Kaminsky: I've learned that data drives decisions and data supports decisions, and the right data will help the financial, the people that own the pocketbook, that data will help.
[00:25:52] Dave Travers: That is the coin of the realm. Yes.
[00:25:54] Leeann Kaminsky: That data will help support your recommendations. Right. Your decisions for what you need to do.
[00:26:01] Dave Travers: Yes. I'm a recovering CFO myself, and I will say that as a, when people come to you all the time, all day saying, we need more money to do this, very noble, worthwhile, you know, high ROI thing.
The way to show that you've really thought this through, much less make the case, but just to show that you're serious is like, if you're leading with data. As you laid out already, is the step one. If you're leading with data, it just like all of a sudden I go out of my defensive crouch to now as the protector of the money.
I'm now, okay, now I'm with a fellow business partner and we're trying to use. Information to decide where should we spend it, as opposed to, here's this person who's coming to me again to ask for money for this thing. That sounds good, but hasn't been fully thought through. But when you have the data to support the story, all of a sudden it's fully thought through.
[00:26:53] Leeann Kaminsky: Yeah, and it's not just the data of what you need, right? It might be data on what we're spending on travelers or locums. It could be the data of how long we've been trying to fill the job, how long it's been offered out there, the data of how many rejections we've gotten, right? Or the data of somebody rejected us because they're getting offers for more money, or they're getting offers for higher sign-on bonuses.
Do we want to pay sign-on bonuses? No. I mean, nobody wants to do that, but you see it everywhere. It's in every industry where they're paying sign-on bonuses. I mean, the local grocery store by where I live it's just a little mom-and-pop store, and they're, they're giving a thousand dollars for teenagers to come work at the grocery store.
I mean, you, I mean, nobody wants to do that, but you're desperate. Sometimes you have to do unsavory things.
[00:28:01] Dave Travers: So true. But, I think, it's unsavory sometimes in isolation. If the decision is, do I pay a sign on bonus or not, versus. Do I pay a sign-on bonus, or do I have an operating room that lies fallow for a day?
And one of those is way more expensive than the other when you have the data in front of you?
[00:28:22] Leeann Kaminsky: Well, and here's the thing, you know, in healthcare, where hospitals make their money are in the ORs, and if your ORs aren't running, you're not making money. And yeah, we're nonprofit, but we still need to make a profit so that we can pay the people that work for us.
We can reinvest in the capital that we need. We can pay for those really expensive light bulbs that are in the operating room. I've seen what they cost and I, believe me, I can't believe it. But yeah, I mean, you know, we need to be able to make money to do the work that we need to do. I mean, we're not here just to make a profit.
We're here to take care of people, and if we don't have the right resources, and that includes people, and you need to have the people to be able to get the work done.
[00:29:10] Dave Travers: Yeah, no. In the nonprofit world, and healthcare and elsewhere, one of the things that is often counterintuitive to people, nonprofit doesn't mean non-revenue.
It means that there's nothing that drives the mission of an organization more than the ability to fund itself and fund the next operating room as the next newest technology comes along. Okay, so Leeann, let's talk about as you're making investments in change, building teams, building processes, part of what you have to do to support an organization with 35,000 people is not just to have a great team, but for things like data and other things, you need really good technology.
How do you decide in a people-driven world of HR and a patient-centered world of working in medicine, how do you decide where do we want to insert technology into a process, and where is the people part critical?
[00:30:02] Leeann Kaminsky: Well, we've done some really big investments in our technology, we have a really. What I would consider great HRIS systems. It's called Workday. Don’t know if you've ever heard of it, but..
[00:30:19] Dave Travers: I've heard of their boutique, but they're coming up in the world.
[00:30:22] Leeann Kaminsky: When I came here, we also were 20 years behind in our HR IT resources in terms of technology.
And we upgraded that over the last several years, and it's fantastic to me. I think it's very user-friendly. It's almost like going on Amazon. You do a search for whatever you need to do, and it's helping us in HR do our work easier, where a manager previously may have made a request via email and sent it to somebody to process something that could get lost, right there could be an error 'cause of a typo, typographical error, or a data entry error.
Now we're using those systems, a lot of it's self-service, so the managers are putting requests in doing things that then happen automatically through approvals, you know, which is great. It saves time. You're not getting people to having to take a form to someone to sign and then someone to data enter it.
We are trying to keep up with technology on the HR side. We have some great people. There's a great individual on my team that he's very technically savvy and he will, he knows the system. He helped us implement it, and he knows things that we need to optimize. He knows things that we need to add on, you know, if there's new things coming out within the system, he'll be making those recommendations.
There's, we just talked recently, there's a lot of AI things that we probably are a little bit behind where we need to be, and we need to push through with some of that stuff. Not that it's gonna take people's jobs away, it's just gonna free up people's time to do other things that they should be focusing on, but it's definitely something that we have to constantly keep an eye on and keep trying to move forward to ensure that we are staying up to date with the latest and greatest tools.
[00:32:29] Dave Travers: Okay, Leeann, we always end these episodes with a rapid-fire round. So I want, you mentioned your great leader, CEO, earlier. I want you to imagine that you and he get in the elevator together, and you know, you've got 30 seconds as you're riding up to the top floor.
And he, he's like, oh, hey Leeann, you know, I was thinking, you know, there's so much going on. We built so many systems, we're implementing new technology. How should we measure the people team? And the people team's performance over the next year or two. Well, what would your answer to that be?
[00:33:04] Leeann Kaminsky: Well, I can say from my perspective, from the HR perspective, we track everything that we do.
In Workday, everything is assigned a case, and some people may or may not like that. However, it can show you how much we're getting done, how fast we're getting it done, if there are things lagging that we need to follow up on. So, I would say from an HR perspective, you know, monitoring our HR cases to see the work that we're doing and how quickly.
The other thing is we have an executive dashboard that I share with all of our leaders and it's, I share that on a monthly basis. It's showing our turnover, our vacancies, our time to fill with positions, our transfers in, and our transfers out across the system, what we're spending on agency. Just keeping everything top of mind, and I think back can help show the organizations and the people's performance as well across the organization by looking at that.
[00:34:03] Dave Travers: Okay, one more. Same scenario, getting in the elevator. There's the CEO. Hey Leeann, you know, I spent all this time interviewing people for. Positions here to think about who should be moving up in the organization.
You're the expert. You've been a recruiter. You lead the people team. Like, give me your one best tip to be a better interviewer.
[00:34:23] Leeann Kaminsky: The one tip is to really ask meaningful questions, right? So meaningful questions that are gonna tell you what that candidate really is capable of doing. Examples of how they have achieved certain things.
And it's okay to ask for more detail if they don't fully answer a question, 'cause sometimes your question might be two parts, and then you have to get them to circle back and answer the second part. But I think just really asking meaningful questions. And then the other thing is doing your homework on the person, right?
So don't just look at their resume for five seconds before they come in to meet with you. Really look at it. Look at where they worked, maybe. Google them. Check out their social media if you can. You can learn a lot about a person and things that they've done. Look at their LinkedIn. I think those are really ways, and then also you can look at their connections, you know, see who they're connected to.
You might know somebody that they're connected to that you might say to them, Hey, I saw that you're connected to so and so and and that you worked with them. What would they say about you? I think those are the kinds of things that could really tell a lot about a person during the interview process.
[00:35:43] Dave Travers: Leeann Kaminsky, it is very clear why you're a talent All-Star. Thanks so much for taking the time with us today.
[00:35:48] Leeann Kaminsky: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
[00:35:53] Dave Travers: That's Leeann Kaminsky, Senior Vice President and Chief Human Resources Officer at West Virginia University Medicine. We'll put our LinkedIn profile in the notes below. And just a reminder, we put the video versions of these conversations on YouTube, also on the official ZipRecruiter channel. If you have feedback for us or ideas for future episodes, send us an email at talentallstars@ziprecruiter.com. I'm Dave Travers. Thanks for listening to Talent All-Stars. See you right back here next time.